The Truth About Chiropractic with Bharon Hoag

I needed to understand why chiropractic did what it did. You know, I saw the results. I saw the patients. I watched people walk in our office and give their own money to come in and keep coming in and talk about how much better their life was. But I couldn’t process. It’s like we all do it right. We all crack our knuckles, you see people all the time cracking their neck with their hands and doing these things. And the noise is relatively easy to recreate. But why were we having life changing results,

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This is the Dr. Haley Show podcast. I’m Michael Haley, your show host, and today we’re being joined by Bharon Hoag. He is not a chiropractor, but very well may be one of the most important figures in the chiropractic profession today. His accomplishments are kind of numerous to many to name here, but one of them is not going to chiropractic school.

Bharon, I want to thank you for joining me today. We’re going to have a good time talking about chiropractic, but I’m wondering, how the heck did you get into the chiropractic profession without going to chiropractic school?

Yeah, well thanks, doc, I appreciate it. And I really am honored to be here and to talk to your tribe and, yeah, you know, it’s funny, that’s probably the number one question. When people actually meet me, they assume I’m a doctor. And then when I tell them I’m not their first thing is like, well, then how did you get into this? The only thing I can really say is it was a God thing. It was just God providing opportunities and moving in my life at the time.

But I had, just taken a job I didn’t know chiropractic existed. No one in my family had ever been adjusted. I’d never been adjusted. And I just took a job. It just was where I was at. I had just had a daughter. I was floundering in life in general because I had made some decisions that obviously didn’t pan out in the right direction. And, and I was just trying to grow up and figure out who I was. And the job just kind of appeared out of nowhere. The doctor, it happened to be a chiropractic office. He hired me on the spot because I knew everybody in my town. And he just essentially I was hired as a PRCA, a public relations chiropractic assistant, short for marketer.

To go out and get new patients was essentially what I was hired for. And because I knew everybody in my town, he was like, well, you seem to be very good at communicating. Let’s just do it. So I was 19 years old and, I really was very skeptical. I didn’t know what was going on. I’d only seen those kind of moves on TV with, like, Steven Seagal and Jean-Claude Van Dam. You know, I’d never

hey, were some of my favorites, right?

Right. So the first time I saw a cervical adjustment, I’m like, what in the world is going on? And it was, massive culture shock for me, but, praise God. You know, my journey has just been one of just intrigue.

I needed to understand why chiropractic did what it did. You know, I saw the results. I saw the patients. I watched people walk in our office and give their own money to come in and keep coming in and talk about how much better their life was. But I couldn’t process. It’s like we all do it right. We all cracker knuckles, you know, you see people all the time dragging their neck with their hands and doing these things. And the noise is relatively easy to recreate. But why were we having life changing results, with these people? And we’re a suburb of Columbus where I started working in chiropractic. So we got a lot of patients from the OSU hospital that just were frustrated with the allopathic way of life. And this was a last resort. And then they were just swearing by our chiropractor.

So I, you know, I kind of made a deal with God. I had a situation happen with a patient that kind of rocked me to my core. And I remember sitting in my office that day and just praying, I mean like, alright God. I need to know what this is all about. You know, the patient was thanking me. I did nothing but just sell them. I mean, I really was just a sales guy. I was just like, give us two weeks of at the end of two weeks, it doesn’t work. Then, you know, we’ll shut your wife up. But at least you know, you give it a shot. Maybe it works. And so I just did. I was doing deals, man.

The art of the deal

on the regular. But I didn’t believe in it. I was just that’s how I was Bonused. So I was just closing deals because that’s how I was making money. And this patient just came in one day and just started crying. And he’s like, thank you. Thank you for giving me my life back. And I was floored, utterly floored, because I did nothing other than talk him into care. And, that day I prayed to God. I’m like, all right, I got to know what this is. And I for whatever reason, it was a pivotal day. I’ll never forget his July of 1997. And, I’ll never forget just sitting there being like, wait a minute.

I don’t have to be the chiropractor to influence people for chiropractic. It was like a light bulb just went off. And I’m like, all right, so I don’t need to be a DC to change the world through chiropractic. And so at that time, I had my young daughter, I had no money, I wasn’t in a position to move. So going to chiropractic school wasn’t an option. The closest one for me would have been National or Palmer, and I just I had no desire to move. And so I, I just kept going. I made a deal with God. I said, if the minute that me not being a chiropractor limits my ability to impact the world with chiropractic, I’m going to school.

Well, I’m almost 30 years now and I am still to this day found not being a chiropractor has opened more doors for me to be able to tell the story of chiropractic in a way that people can hear it. And, you know, again, I’ve served in every possible role you can in chiropractic, other than being the actual chiropractor. I own a clinic now in Columbus, Ohio. My daughter’s a chiropractor. My son’s at Life University right now going to chiropractic school. I’ve owned clinics. I’ve run state associations. I’ve served on boards of national associations. And now, after all this time, I have a nonprofit where I spend most of my time advocating and defending chiropractic around the world.

I think that’s fascinating. Did you do spinal screenings when you were first doing PR stuff?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we were, clients of David Singer. And so we did a lot of screenings, a lot of primary script, a lot of four day report of findings, all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

So you were trained how to do that. You were using it to get patients and you were convincing them, but it was for your own monetary benefit.

Absolutely. Yeah.

and then it was Holy smokes, this stuff actually works.

That was crazy. You know, and here’s the crazy part. And I don’t want to derail or anything, but I was really confused because as I was asking questions of my doctor, he couldn’t answer them. I’m like, why does this work? And he’s like, well, it’s putting pressure on a nerve. I’m like, I mean, okay, but that’s not enough. Like, I understand that for if the pain was right there, but the pain was down here and I I’ll never forget this one. So the guy that came in and thanked me, his issue was incontinence.

He for years and years and years, he couldn’t control his bladder. And all of a sudden he got adjusted and he was able to hold his bladder and he didn’t have to wear diapers anymore. And so he was just he felt like he had a new lease on life, like he could go, he could travel, he could go out to eat. He just literally felt like a little kid because he wasn’t worried about peeing himself.

and I’m just like, that’s not nerve on bone. Like what’s there? And then we, this one really blew my mind, and I thought she was lying, and she just said it was a placebo. But it was a young lady that had gotten married, and they were trying to have kids, and they tried in vitro. They tried everything. After her third adjustment, she came in and she’s like, I’m pregnant. and the doc’s like, yeah, okay, that’s expected. And I’m like, wait a minute. What? What do you mean you’re pregnant? Like a different dude or something? You know, I don’t know what’s going on. And so I kept asking my doctor and he’s like, well, you know, that nerve does affect, you know, the sexual organs.

And I’m like, it’s just something it’s not adding up. So it really took me on this massive journey to understand the brain and the neurology and what the adjustment actually does to the brain and why chiropractic kind of, you know, D.D. and BJ (Palmer) used to say one cause, one cure. And they were like, we just all we got to do is, you know, the safety pin. We just got to restore and get the body and the brain better connected. And I understood those things on a larger scale, but I couldn’t understand it from a perspective of really talking to a medical doctor of why we’re seeing a patient and why the adjustment is and, you know, I wanted to be able to have that kind of a debate and argument. And, yeah. So it took me on a crazy journey.

You know, on the can’t get pregnant thing. It reminds me of one of my patients in the late 90s, and she had a injury from, doing gymnastics and a, you know, a mid to low back area that was just, like, glued together. Didn’t feel right. and she couldn’t get pregnant. And I remember I knew that area was very related. And I started adjusting every time I put her in the position to do that side posture and get the big release. She would just tighten up and she was scared and, you know, and to the point where she was affecting my ability to adjust her. So after a few adjustments, you know, I had her describe it.

What do you mean, you know, what are you bracing for? Because I knew I wanted to break through it, but not at a level that would cause her too much pain and say, you know, I’m not going back there. The chiropractor hurt me. Sometimes what we do actually creates pain because we’re making a change. And she finally communicated it in a way. Well, it’s like stiff. I said, stiff, you’re making all those faces and everything because it’s stiff. And I remember putting her on her side and just barreling through it. And then it sounded like, you know, sitting on the bag of Doritos kind of thing, all that noise and a big release and her spine felt completely different. And from that time on, she was able to get pregnant.

It was rather quick when we freed up the tension that nerves were free and they were working like they were supposed to, and whatever they go to is going to work more like it’s supposed to.

Yeah. That’s awesome.

So yeah, fun stuff. I am as a chiropractor, gonna ask you a lot of questions that I have answers to, but chiropractors don’t always have the same answers, so it will be, I think, beneficial. Anyway, have you found that there’s chiropractors that think this way in chiropractors that think that way is.

Yes, yes, yes. I you know, and it’s one of the beauties of our profession is the uniqueness and the diversity, but it’s also one of the most frustrating things on the planet. We’re too small of a profession to be as diverse as we are, and the way that we approach and communicate chiropractic. And one of the things that I am thankful for, and God has used me, is to help translate some of that to the lay people, to legislators, to, you know, decision makers within communities and employers and things of that nature where I get rid of some of the mystery. I don’t know what happens to you guys in chiropractic school.

I’m dealing the same thing with my kids, but that your guys’s ability to, like, not think and talk in doctor speak is just it’s very difficult for it not to be there. And so I love chiropractors. Obviously, I’ve dedicated my life to the profession and to the individuals in it, but I yeah, it is very interesting. I definitely have a different way. People tell me all the time, wow, no one’s ever explained it like that before. And I’m like, it’s because I’m an idiot and I refuse to say six syllable words. So I’m just taking what they’re saying, and I’m bringing it down to a level that the average person can understand. So yeah,

and I know exactly what you’re talking about. We weren’t the most gifted communicators and you know, it is what it is. But what we do works.

Yeah.

And it’s incredible. Sometimes I can’t understand why. Why do you want to come to me so much? You’re going to you’re going to pass 20 or 30 chiropractors on your way to me. There’s a lot of us out there, but, you know, it’s. Well, I was your first chiropractor, and you know, you love what I do. And you don’t think anyone else can do it?

Yeah. It’s chiropractic is like, you know, it’s kind of like pizza. Even when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good.

That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. Yeah.

So hit me with whatever questions you got, my friend.

Well, let’s start with, as not being a chiropractor. How does that work to your advantage?

Yeah. Well, again, it allows a more authentic conversation. So I part of what I have done for the last 20 years and what I’m currently doing now is, you know, I talked to the Department of Defense, I’m talking to the Secretary of Health, I’m talking to the CEOs and medical directors of employers and insurance companies. And, you know, I get to go to a lot of places, because I’m just a business guy. And, and so it’s a non-threatening environment for them to honestly tell me what they think about chiropractic. So when I come in and I explain to them that, you know, I very seldom lead with chiropractic, I lead with conservative health care, looking at, alternatives to the allopathic model.

So I never really just come in with a one trick pony. It’s we need to start looking at plan designs. We need to start looking at the care options available. And we need to start curbing human behavior by creating plan designs that actually encourage the type of behavior we want, rather than what’s happening now. Just as a quick example, anyone that has any level of insurance, whether it’s Medicare all the way to Blue Cross, Blue Shield and, Obamacare plan, you’re almost encouraged to enter whatever health care issues you may have.

You’re entering the system primarily through an allopathic mindset, because that’s where there’s no out of pocket. You can go to an urgent care, you can go to a emergency room, you can go to your primary care. And there’s almost no deductible and no out-of-pocket. But to go from a more complimentary health standpoint, where you’re really looking at causes and cures and prevention and things of that nature, there are substantially higher deductibles and oftentimes much lower benefit plan design.

So chiropractic, you’re going to have anywhere from 500 to $2000 deductible. And maybe your plan covers anywhere from 7 to 12 visits where you have unlimited with the allopathic model. So whether they mean to or not, they’re actually creating a behavior pattern where the patients always going to go and enter the system where they’re going to be using that and be stuck in the system, which is going to create a much longer trail on The care provided. So I would go in and talk to them about, well, why don’t we create a plan design that actually there’s no deductible if you choose acupuncture, massage, chiropractic, going to the gym. But if you’re going to be, you know, lazy and just do the easy way and go get a prescription, there’s going to be a deductible, right?

And I’m like, like, what? Have we change that? So when we go in there and we start talking about that stuff, these individuals will be honest, like, oh, those chiropractors, you know? But if I was a chiropractor, they wouldn’t talk to me that way. They would because they wouldn’t want to offend me personally. So because I’ve done so much research I really can talk with anyone on any level, I spend a lot of time with, you know, PhDs in neurology, having very in-depth conversations about the prefrontal cortex and synapses and, you know, the reticular formation coming out of the brain stem, you know, all that kind of stuff that I can hold my own in those conversations.

And so it’s awesome for me because I’m not a chiropractor. People hear what I’m saying much almost like, wow, okay. Well, gosh, I never thought about it that way. Where if I was a chiropractor, it’s almost like I’m talking myself up, right? So I’m almost that guy that’s giving the profession a third party endorsement. But I know it really, really, really, really well. So it exudes confidence into the people that I’m communicating that what I’m saying is true. So that’s probably the biggest reason that me not being a chiropractor has helped me do it,

even in the chiropractic community. I mean, I get all the time, well, you’re more philosophical, you’re more in fire for chiropractic than most chiropractors. And then my answer is I am, partially it’s just God’s gifting in my life. I’m a very passionate human and just about everything that I enjoy. However, I’m not the one that’s sitting next to a table day in and day out adjusting people. I don’t have that drag, right? I don’t have and I don’t mean to mean it’s a negative, but it’s exhausting.

my daughter, I see her every day. She sees 40 to 50 people a day. And it is. And then on top of that, to run your business on top of that, to do things outside of your office. Right. it’s a massive drain. I don’t have that. So I’m living vicariously through your guys. So it gives me a bit more energy to be able to go and tackle some of these things.

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for that reason, were you a little bit torn when you found out that they wanted to become chiropractors? Because now they can’t do what you’re doing?

Not at all. I was so excited because I would love to be one like I would be an unbelievable chiropractor. Like, I love people and I love it so much. And I, you know, I would be one of those guys that would have a clinic that is so unique and so niche and my patients would be family. And, you know, we have that now. I mean, I have the privilege of owning a clinic. So I kind of get that. And now that my daughter’s in there, it’s almost like an extension of me versus just hiring any other chiropractor.

So but I was so blown away. I was very concerned. When they were kids. I traveled a ton. I mean, I was all over the country. I was going to all kinds of chiropractic events. I was a speaker, so I was very fearful that them growing up, they were not going to want anything to do with chiropractic because it took their dad away when they were younger. And I’ll never forget my daughter, I was running, I was the executive director of the Ohio State Chiropractic Association. She was in high school. She was 15 years old, and I used to have her come and scan the badges as docs went in and out of the room for continuing education credit, and it was the first time she heard me speak from stage, and I got off stage and I was walking back and she kind of had tears in her eyes.

So I thought something had happened and someone, you know, messed with her or whatever. And she just looked at me. And the only thing she said is she goes, dad, I get it.

Wow.

And I, I just, I fell apart, I’m just I fell apart. And so when she really why she did it is because we started. She rode horses, we started adjusting her horse. And she could literally feel the difference in the horse from pre and post adjustment. And it clicked in her brain what’s been happening with her since she was three and she’s like, I want to do this. I want to adjust animals. She’s certified in animal chiropractic as well. And so she does, pregnant women, babies and animals. That’s kind of her specialty, her niche in practice. And she’s just absolutely killing it and doing great.

My son, his was, I didn’t think he was going to do it. He is a big two sport athlete in college. I just figured he was going to go play golf the rest of his life and, you know, do some sales job or something, but he just I when he was a sophomore in college, he was like, I don’t know why I wouldn’t be in chiropractic. I’ve been adjusted my whole life. The family’s in it. I get to be with you and Maddie and all this. So his was just very logical. He’s like, why would I do anything else? It’s everything I know. and of course, he’s that annoying kid in chiropractic school where it all comes easy. So he’s golfing 2 to 3 times a week passing his boards. And it’s just, you know, he’s not struggling like his sister did, going through the program, but, but yeah, no, I was I was extremely honored.

And I tell you, I fell in love with chiropractic when I was 19. I’ve fallen in love with it when I really got into the neurology of it. And I truly understood the power of the adjustment that blew my mind. And that was about 15 to 18 years in. Then I was like, Holy crap, this all makes sense. Like, I can tell you right now why an adjustment does what it does. And that was a rekindling of my fire. And then when my daughter went to school and just the text I would get from her as she got the big idea for herself and it was like, this is insane.

And then now my son. So it’s been many iterations of my refueling and it reignition of my fire for what we do. And but yeah, it’s, No, I’m honored. I’m blown away. It’s the best thing in the world. I would recommend it to anyone. It breaks my heart when chiropractors say I don’t want my kids to be a chiropractor because they’re disenfranchised themselves for whatever reason and practice. And it breaks my heart. I’m like, you let me help you. Let me give you hope. Let me show you how to fix this stuff so that you fall back in love with it, because there’s nothing better for your kids to do than that.

Yeah. And so I better understand your love for chiropractic. How often do you get adjusted?

Oh, once a week at least. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that’s neurological. I mean again our clinic is that way. We’re a subscription based clinic. We don’t take any insurance whatsoever. You know when you’re an active care, we see it 2 to 3 times a week depending on what’s going on. But once you can sustain once a week, you go on a subscription, and you just pay monthly and you get four visits a month and use them or lose them.

and it’s because of the neurology. We know the brain recreates patterns every seven days. And so when you understand that adjustment, what the adjustment actually does and how it stimulates the prefrontal cortex and it creates neuroplasticity, wakes the brain up and gives the brain a better opportunity to learn and interpret the information that’s being sent to it. You why you would get adjusted any less than once a week is insane to me. Because you’re fighting against the brain. Your brain becomes an opponent instead of a teammate. And I, my whole life now is helping people understand how to make their brain a teammate and not an opponent. And, and getting adjusted once a week definitely does that. So yeah, I’ve been adjusted at least once a week for 27 years.

That’s great. Now, chiropractic wasn’t always allowed. What would you do? How would you feel and what would you do if it wasn’t legal?

Well, hell hath no fury than me scorned if they try to do that. And that is a lot of the work that we do. I don’t think chiropractic will ever go away ever again. I think it’s too saturated, and we’ve validated ourselves enough that will be around, the type of work that we do now with my nonprofit like we’re in Australia right now, where they created a policy that said chiropractors can’t see children two and under. Not a shred of evidence.

There’s not one claim in the entire country of a chiropractor hurting a child. There was no complaints. It was all just an attack from the medical community. Just saying. We’ve got to limit these guys any way we can. People need to understand. And I’m not a conspiracy guy, but there’s enough evidence from the Wilkes case and the AMA back in the 70s and 80s to attacks that we deal with every day, where there are forces that be that are trying to limit our ability to do what we do, because we are in direct contrast to the economic system of health care.

There’s a lot of money in sick people. There’s a lot of control. C…d taught us that the vaccines taught right. Opioids taught us that, you know, all this stuff that’s been happening over the last ten years, if you’re paying attention, you can see health care isn’t really about people’s health. It’s about the economic impact of individuals, whether it’s pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, whatever the case may be a chiropractic, anyone that goes to a chiropractor and really gives it a shot, they start getting in control of their health and they’re making better decisions.

They’re no longer a participant in that allopathic model. Well, there’s a lot of people that are very vested in people staying, taking statin drugs for the rest of their life for their cholesterol and high blood pressure. So when they come to our office and we teach them how to regulate those things naturally, they’re not very happy about that. They just lost a customer. And so those types of things are what we’re dealing with right now is making sure that there’s access and making sure that we defend the rights of practicing chiropractors all over the world, because that some of these issues are, you know, our state associations are not capable of dealing with them. They’re our national associations really don’t have the structure to be able to deal with them.

they’re more legislative than they are legal. So when we created our organization, the Chiropractic Defense Council, our whole purpose was to be the legal arm of the profession to go and beat some heads, go to war, be the special forces team, then that the profession needed to go and do our work and get out. And, so I’m very proud to say, you know, we’re five years into that, C…d really helped us when they were mandating that chiropractors had to be vaccinated in order to practice during that time, you know, we went and defended successfully everyone in the United States. We were over in Australia. We kept over thousands, thousands of chiropractors practicing without being vaccinated and defended them and did that work.

And so now we’re taking on an another thing in British Columbia. They just all of a sudden said chiropractors can’t do routine X-rays. So whether if you are an upper cervical or you do CBP or Pettibon or any of those techniques that are very spine focused can’t do it anymore, you can’t do it anymore. And but they again, no reason, not a single complaint. It’s the only place in the world that had taken away informed consent from the patient. The patient can’t even ask for it and say, I want an x-ray. The chiropractors like, I can’t do it because you don’t have a red flag. It’s just it’s asinine. So those are the types of ways that they keep trying to create a smaller box for us to operate in.

That’s what I think we’ll experience for the rest of time. And but as long as we are doing what we’re doing, we’re going to make sure that doesn’t happen.

Yeah. In other situations, if you don’t take an x-ray, you’re in trouble.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. It’s just insane.

Yeah, it’s it makes no sense. When you talked about the, you know, no adjusting before two years old, I think of an infant that I adjusted in the late 90s that was born with a paralyzed arm from a traumatic birth and one visit.

Yeah.

Mother calls later on that night. She’s using her arm. She wouldn’t have gotten that. Adjusts

exactly right. And again, you know, because my daughter focuses with pregnant women and babies, that’s really our focus. it’s awesome to watch the light bulb go off in the mom’s mind. About because obviously everyone’s petrified the idea of, you know, when I tell people my son was adjusted at two hours old, they’re like, what what what? How are you What… you’ll rip their head off! I’m like, we’re not doing a rotary cervical on a newborn. It’s… there are multiple ways to create input into the brain. Right. And it when you watch a chiropractor adjust a baby it’s very soft. It’s lighter than a pinprick, you know, I mean, it’s just there a lighter than a touch on a pillow.

It’s just insane. So but when they get it and they understand, I’m like, think about it. Like, this baby just went through the most traumatic thing it probably ever will. it’s muscles aren’t fully developed, has their bones are still very soft. You’re shoving them through a pelvis and you think that there’s not going to be any neurological involvement in that. There’s not going to be any subluxation, any rotation of vertebra. There’s not going to be any input that could hinder the neurological development of your baby. Why would you not want to just get someone to make sure that all that stuff’s in proper alignment and give this baby the best opportunity to get their primitive reflexes and to start growing and be the powerhouse that God created him to be.

And they were like, oh yeah, that makes sense. I’m like, all right. So the first thing you should be doing is getting that baby adjusted and and you getting adjusted also during and after your pregnancy so your body can go back and do what it was designed to do in recovery rather than all the trauma that we see right now with the current labor and delivery system. So yeah.

Yeah, crazy stuff. You know, as you reference, spiritual things and God, I am wondering how your understanding of chiropractic affected your relationship with your creator.

Yeah. You know, it was one of the coolest things because chiropractic in and of itself has these phrases like ADIO above, down, inside out, right. That’s a phrase that is just kind of universal in chiropractic, which means God is above. And he put everything in us our innate understanding in our body, and the healing comes from within outward. It doesn’t come from outward in. And that’s one of the premises of chiropractic, is that we’re a self-healing, self-regulating organism. We just have to remove the interferences that’s always been one of the primary premises of chiropractic.

So as I got into this and I, you know, I was at that time I was dealing with my own stuff with God just because I had just had a child out of wedlock. And I was actually a musician and the lead singer of a Christian rock band that had just gotten signed. And so now I had this illegitimate child, like my life was in flux, like I felt horrible anyway. And then I had a kid and I lost my career path. I didn’t know what I was going to do, so I was already going through this. self-awareness with God and asking for forgiveness and figuring out my life and growing up. Because now it wasn’t just about me. I had a kid on the way It was time.

And, when I got into chiropractic and I met so many chiropractors that had a faith and the reason they were doing what they’re doing was to really come to get the body back into the way that it was designed to operate. And, you know, D.D. and BJ Palmer, you know, really did the three T’s thoughts, toxins and traumas, physical, emotional, chemical stress. And when you look at those things and how they affect us both on a, on a physical and spiritual level, and then you have techniques like best technique or NET or some of these techniques that really get into the neuro emotional work.

It’s impossible to not draw closer to God in the midst of watching that stuff happen. When you watch the body in the way it operates. So anyone that doubts that there’s a God, look at how our body operates. Like the design, the intent, it is not random. There’s nothing random at all about how our body works. And that’s what’s so amazing with technology. Now, we can hack a lot of those systems. Now that we understand how these things work, we can make moves and do things that help healing that help response.

I use this analogy all the time. You know this because you’ve been in the profession for so long. But a sprained ankle, right? I just look at a sprain in my son was an athlete. The allopathic model of dealing with a sprained ankle is bracing it up, icing it and staying off it. That is the worst possible thing you could do for a sprained ankle. The only reason they do that is because they’re using pain as the indicator. That’s the measurement of health in that situation is the symptom. You and I both know the worst thing you can do is brace that thing and stay off it.

We need to adjust it, create movement, send that information to the brain with the brain. No. We’re okay. Nothing’s broken. Nothing’s fractured. You don’t need to protect this part of the body. Keep using it. Yes, it’ll be a little tender, but move it. And we’ve seen that at John Stockton’s. One of the best memories I can think of with the Phoenix Suns in the in the playoffs. I think this was in the late 90s. Had one of the most horrific sprained ankles in the second quarter went out luckily he was a chiropractic patient. His chiropractor was there in the halftime. He got his ankle worked. He came back out and he finished the game and they won. And everyone was like, there’s no way he’s coming back from that.

But there’s actually a documentary that talks about what the chiropractor was doing and how he was able to finish that game. He literally did sprain his ankle. It was just how powerful the mind is when you understand how that stuff works. And so all of that was just such a powerful thing for me about God, and watching it work and watching the energy connection.

A lot of people don’t understand this as well, that a lot of the healing, quote unquote, that happens to a chiropractic adjustment is nothing more than the energy transfer from the chiropractor. It’s not even the motion of moving the bones. It is literally just the energy transfer of that individual. Some of my favorite technique adjusters are Aaron and Patrick, and they have Syntropy Syntropy is one of the most amazing. they don’t teach their own specific technique like Thompson or, diversified or Gonstead or any of that. They teach you the dynamics of whatever technique you’re going to use, side posture, ATP, whatever you’re using. But how do you put yourself in the best position? How do you use the least amount of force to have the most amount of impact on the patient?

And it’s all about the dynamics of whatever you’re going to do. But they say this thing like before you adjust, you have to drop in. You need to clear your mind. You need to be focused on the patient, and you need to be right with them. It’s that energy transfer that happens that to me, that’s a spiritual thing. that’s a, you know, Chinese proverb that a flower leaves a little bit of itself with everyone that holds it. That stuff is what really drew me into chiropractic and strengthened my faith.

Yeah. I always, before adjusting a patient, I had to make sure I would connect with them, and if I didn’t feel connected, I wouldn’t do the adjustment. I remember a particular patient with this frown on his face, and for him it was a shoulder issue and I felt like. And I misread him. I felt like he didn’t want to be there, or he didn’t believe I could help him because he seemed so negative about it. And I finally drilled down and he said, it just hurts. I said, oh, this is all about the pain. And at that moment we connected. I gave him his adjustment and instantly fixed. But you have to connect with them because it is. There’s more happening than just the adjustment.

Absolutely.

So chiropractors do a lot of different things, and there’s different states that have more regulations or less regulations. Some are doing acupuncture and you know, they’re doing all kinds of different things.

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What should be the scope of chiropractic?

Oh, you’re a dirty dog.

I know. It’s a tough one and you know.

Yeah.

It was thinking that you might not want to answer this, but.

So here’s what I will tell you. I will tell you my personal belief. This isn’t what I necessarily think should happen for everyone, because I do actually celebrate the diversity of chiropractic. I have my bumpers, I have my boundaries. I do not think chiropractors should ever administer drugs, period. I or do surgery. I think those are two. We’ve already got professions that do that, that are far more qualified to do it than we are. And I think it’s a direct dichotomy from what chiropractic stands for. So drugs and surgery are out.

So I know like Montana right now is putting language through or trying to be able to prescribe drugs. And I just think it’s asinine. It doesn’t make sense to me why you would want to do that as a chiropractor. And I and I pray that that doesn’t continue. So that that’s kind of my boundary outside of that, if you want to get into decompression, you want to get into laser therapy, you want to get into physical therapy, you want to get into nutrition, you want to get into oils. You know, I like the diversity, but as long as the adjustment isn’t replaced by anything, I don’t really care. I really don’t. And I will fight for your right. If it’s within your scope in your state, I will fight for your right to be able to do what you want to do within the confines of that scope.

Me personally, if I had my druthers, I think our profession’s giving up on the adjustment, and I think we’re giving up on it primarily because of the reimbursement model. Most insurance companies, most reimbursement sources devalue the adjustment, so it gets paid so little that we’ve added other services to be able to get our dollar per visit average up to be able to afford to live. Right? I mean, when you’re getting paid $12 for an adjustment from Blue Cross Blue Shield, you’ve got to add therapies. You’ve got to add something else to get that. I mean, it cost you more to see a patient than $12, right?

so I think that’s the model has been broken because of major medical and because we’ve done such a poor job of explaining the value of the adjustment. Therefore, it allows them to continue to drop the reimbursement model. So I think if chiropractors got paid $90, an adjustment, we wouldn’t be doing anything but adjusting. We wouldn’t have all these ancillary services because we could actually make a living seeing 40 to 50 people a day, getting $90 a pop. A lot of guys would be very happy with that, and we wouldn’t do all the ancillary stuff.

I’m in collaboration. I don’t I get that their physical therapy looks at the body differently than chiropractic does. So chiropractors that get into physical therapy in their practice, it’s not the same physical therapy you would get at a physical therapy center. I appreciate and understand that, but I’m the kind of guy if I want to find people, work with them, but show them if you want my referrals. This is the type of stuff I want you to do. I’m just going to make sure I’m adjusting in my office. If we stay in our lane, it literally allows us to work with anybody and everybody. When we start diversifying our practice, we become competitors with other people in our community. And that’s where a lot of the misunderstand things of chiropractic come from, from these other specialties, because from their perspective, we’re treading on their turf.

and I’m not going to say we are aren’t that’s, that’s a debate that could go either way. But I do think a lot of chiropractors have added things to their practice, not because it’s something they really want to do. They’ve added it because of their survival, and they think that’s the missing link to grow their practice or whatever the case may be. And that part bothers me. I don’t like that so much because that’s why a lot of chiropractors aren’t happy, with their they love their patients, but they’re not happy with what they have to do every day in order to survive. But when you find those really philosophical chiropractors where all they do is they’re the happiest people, they’re just so happy.

They’ve just they communicate chiropractic well, they adjust regularly. You know, they’re typically not in the insurance game. They’re just doing it, cash in the patient’s pay and everybody’s kind of happy. and we experience that in our office. There’s no middlemen with us. It’s just us and the patient. I don’t have to worry about Medicare. I don’t have to worry about work comp. I don’t have to worry about Major man, I don’t have to worry about policy changes on reimbursement codes. All those things that become variables that our clinic has to deal with. And so we start jumping through a lot of hoops, and then we just feel miserable because we’re constantly jumping through hoops. So I would never want to limit a scope, but I do wish that people would fall back in love with the adjustment value, add enough, get paid appropriately for it, and fall back in love with what they do.

That’s a solid good answer. What do you think gets in, way of, chiropractor being successful? We talked about a few things, and I’m sure there are worked in. But if you look step back and look at most practices that are suffering. What do you see happening?

Yeah, I’ll tell you my the first thing is I really think chiropractic is one of the very few professions where the chiropractor is almost set up to fail, because most chiropractors have never had a real job before they graduate chiropractic school. So they went from high school to undergrad, undergrad to grad school. And then you finally get out of that after, you know, just let’s just look at your after high school, you’re in college for another essentially eight years. You’re now at 26, 27 years old, never held a real job. You’ve just done odd jobs to pay the bills, and now you’re a business owner. You have no choice.

I failed miserably, and,

yeah, I mean, you have no choice. Like, we don’t. We’re not like other health care fields where you could go join a network group or you could go join a hospital, or you could be a medical director within an insurance company. Like, that’s just those options. I hope they become available down the road, but right now it’s just not there. You either get to be an associate for somebody else, which oftentimes those are horrible relationships because the doctor that’s hiring you doesn’t really know why they’re bringing you on. So you become a test pilot for their whatever it is they’re trying to figure out, or you go further in debt and open your own business and you don’t have a clue what you’re doing.

You don’t know how to hire staff. You don’t know how to train staff. You don’t even know yourself how to do anything. And you’re still not even 100% confident in your ability to adjust. Right? So it’s like it’s like. So that’s why I think so many people kind of go the wrong way is because they have all the best intentions. But then life hits you hard. Six months after chiropractic school. You’re paying on those school loans. You now have overhead rent, you now have all the bubble that you were and living off of your school loans. That’s gone. And like in the pressure of debt is so powerful that it causes us to do things we would have never done in any other scenario.

And then a lot of times we just build a life we don’t like, but it’s the life that works. And then we get 15, 20 years down the road and we’re just not happy. And so I, you know, I spent about ten years consulting, working with chiropractors, helping them fix the business aspect of their clinic. And it was some of the most rewarding stuff I ever did was giving people their lives back by just removing them from the environment and reminding them that they really could build a clinic that they loved, rather than feeling like a hostage to the clinic they have.

And, you know, it’s rewarding work, but that’s really what I think it is. It’s just the model is so difficult. And that’s why I think right now it’s 1 in 5 make it to five years. On their own. I mean, they stay in the profession, but I mean, it’s those that start from scratch. It just becomes very difficult. So I wish that our profession would get a bit bigger so we could really do a better job of helping people be successful right from the start, because chiropractic really is one of those stories of a high tide raises all ships. We want every chiropractor to be successful, because if we could get another thousand to 2000, 3000 chiropractors in our communities, everybody wins because there’s plenty of people. It’s just we need to get more people talking about chiropractic.

Yeah, we have a lot of the same beliefs. In my practice, I got rid of all insurances about, oh, I don’t know, 6 or 7 years ago.

Yeah.

Well, the, the thing that really brought me to the point of saying that’s it, you know, you’re fired. Meaning, you know, Blue Cross, Blue Shield and all the insurance companies, but Blue Cross Blue Shield specifically, they required money back from me that they paid me a few years earlier.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I said, no, go back to the patient and get it. You paid me by mistake. I can’t go now. Charge them three years later and they deducted it from the next patient I had with that insurance. I said, well, I’m not taking this insurance anymore.

Yeah.

And I opted out of Medicare, not realizing that it made it actually illegal to see patients that has Medicare that.

Yeah.

You know, figured it out. But, you know, when it came to the personal injury, you know, too much paperwork and hassle and, you know, it takes us away from being able to help the patient 100%. And for the people that are struggling in practice, I know for me, the big switch, was going from a place of me needing patients to the patients needing me.

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

It’s tough. You get out of school. You do have, you know, for me, it was $100,000 in debt and a little bit over that, but now it’s up to 200,000, you know, 30 years later or whatever it is.

Yeah. Yeah, it’s definitely I mean, I still going to say it’s worth it. I mean, one could argue that it’s too much. I mean, again, I have kids going through right now, my daughter left and I’m not the dad that pays my kids bills. They pay their own bills. So, and, you know, but it’s worth every penny. I mean, she’ll get it back in spades.

you know, but it’s insane. And but it’s the pressure of it, right? My daughter is lucky that she has me to calm her down. If she was all on her own, she’ll be freaking out. But I’m like, you’re okay. You’re going to be fine. Let’s go. You know, let’s just refocus. And that’s where I do believe that having a coach, a business coach is so important for chiropractors, because you just need that support. You need someone that’s going to be honest with you, that’s going to be there when you’re freaking out and help you make better educated decisions. And we have a lot of coaches in chiropractic for that reason, because it’s so needed, and you just need to find the one that works right for you, and get that support. So yeah,

now for the person that’s listening to this and has never been to a chiropractor, or maybe they’re brand new to it, what advice do you have for them?

Ask a lot of questions. You need to decide what you’re looking for. A lot of people choose chiropractic as a last resort and like nothing else, has worked, so I guess I’ll give it a try. And there are, you know, chiropractors are very unique and different. Not it’s not like going to a medical doctor where you’re pretty much going to get the same type of care no matter where you go. It is very different in chiropractic, which is a good thing. The diversity is good because we have very diverse population. But you need to ask some questions and, you know, call and find out.

You can learn a lot from their website just by how they talk about the adjustment. So if you’re, a health and wellness person, but the websites talking a lot about injuries and insurance and all that kind of stuff, you’re probably not going to be a good fit there. But if you are, you know, going in there talking about families and kids and preventative health care, you know, then you’re going to get someone that’s going to be more like what I’ve been talking about today, where we’re all about giving you the highest quality of life rather than chasing symptoms.

And, you know, but they’re all good. Like, if you’re looking for I just I’m in pain and I want out of pain. We have chiropractors that that’s their gig, and they’re not going to try to talk you into anything outside of that. You know, if you came to my office, I’m going to talk to you with that pain is going to keep coming and going until you actually get to the root of the problem. And let’s fix this thing once and for all. But that may not be where you’re at right now in life, which is totally okay.

so I think the more honest you are and not mystified by what chiropractic is, because chiropractic is very science based. It’s not there’s no mystery. It’s not a miracle. It’s amazing. They just understand the body better than I’m going to argue most other health care providers. No one gets the training that chiropractors get on the anatomy physiology, kinesiology of the body. So our ability to really look at you and understand better why you’re having the reactions you’re having to the stresses that you’re facing. That’s it. It’s science. It’s not witchcraft. And so don’t mystify it. Come in asking questions and be okay with saying this probably isn’t the right place for me, but don’t give up on the profession because there is someone that is right for you.

Because getting adjusted is one of the most important things you could do as a foundational imprint to your health decision making, no matter what else you’re doing. Working out, nutrition, acupuncture, massage, any of that stuff is amazing. But if you’re not structurally and neurologically sound, all of those things are not having the impact they should have on your body. And so you’re wasting time and money and effort when you could be getting more out of those things. If your brain and your body were in better structure and alignment.

I love it. What’s in it for you? Why? Why do you take the time to do the podcasts?

Yeah, honestly, this is a fairly new thing for me this year to start doing outside podcasts. I hold my own, but it’s all within the profession. But I miss really going out and helping people have aha moments. It’s just something that I did at the beginning of this year saying, God’s giving me the ability to communicate well. He’s given me a passion for it. You know, I really can’t exude energy through a video rather than, you know, some people, you just want to shoot yourself listening to them.

So I know those are some of my spiritual gifts that he’s given me, and I haven’t been using them. So I get out of this because I, you know, BJ Palmer used to say, to his graduates every time he would graduate a new class of chiropractors, he’d be like, the very first thing you need to do once you get this diplomas, immediately turn around and ask yourself, what can you do for chiropractic? Do not leave this place thinking that chiropractic owes you anything. You owe chiropractic everything. And I feel that way. I mean, it’s given me an incredible life. I’ve met some of the most amazing humans on the planet. It’s giving my kids unbelievable head start in life. They are so healthy. They are so in control. They are so in, you know, connected and grounded with how God created.

And that’s all chiropractic. So I do owe chiropractic everything. And so I do these things because I don’t have anything to sell. You know, there’s no magic website I’m going to send you to, to try to download my book so that I can solicit you to I have nothing to sell. I do this because I just want hopefully God’s going to use these platforms to open up some eyes and ears and get people to consider that they can control their own health, that they can make decisions that impact them on a positive light and not feel like you’re just a rat in a maze.

And there are so many people when it comes to health, whether it’s obesity, whether you’re dealing with a chronic issue, whether you’re just not sleeping, you have no energy, you have anxiety. Whatever the case may be, depression. I’m telling you, your body is capable of healing itself. You just have to get rid of all the junk, and you need someone helping you and advising you on making good decisions for you and your body to maximize all of the effort and money that you’re putting into it. and if it’s me talking to you or talking to any other podcast, is that one person that’s like, oh, wow, okay, that makes sense, then it’s all worth it for me. That’s what’s in it for me.

That’s great, I love it. You have a, giveaway? I did test the URL. I’m not sure it was successful.

Okay,

tell us about the giveaway. Health 101.

Yeah.

Is it? And I think I had either the wrong one or. Let me see. I have health freedom 101, Or is it health? Something else?

Yeah, it’s healthfreedom101.com

Yeah okay. That’s where they get that ten step guide to empower your health care decisions.

Yeah

okay. We’ll have a link below.

Yeah. We’ll probably make sure it’s working I’ll check it out. If you had issues that concerns me. So I’ll make sure my people get on it and make sure that that’s there. But yeah, just ten steps, ten little things you can do to kind of hack your life and really gain control of what you’re doing.

Okay. Great. And have I left anything out? Do you wish I asked any question that I didn’t

No, This has been fun. No. You threw some zingers at me. I was I liked it, it put me on my toes. So that was good. No. You know, I just anyone listening to this, whether you’re a chiropractor or whether you’re a patient or just. However God led you to this particular episode, I just want to let you know you’re beautifully and wonderfully made.

As helpless as you may feel in this moment, I want you to know you are still in control of your life, and I want to give you some hope. We’ve all had moments where we’re not sure how we’re going to get from A to B, and nothing’s making sense, and it feels like our world is falling apart. I’ve shared a little bit of that in my life that I’ve had, but I have it quite regularly because I’m the kind of guy that shoots and then aims, and so I have to do a lot of cleanup in my life. And so there are days where the pressure and the weight feels it. But I have to remind myself that we have been given everything we need.

And, we just need to start believing in yourself, look in the mirror and find the things about you, you love. Stop focusing on the things you don’t. Find who you are. Believe in yourself and your ability and take control of your life. Be free and your mind first, and then the shackles that are actually in your life will go away. And you will start making better decisions. So just know your loved don’t know who you are, but praying for you all the same. And thank you for taking the time to listen to us today.

Darren, thank you so much for joining me today.

Appreciate it doc. Thanks for the time.

I hope you enjoyed that episode today on the Dr. Haley Show. Make sure to hit subscribe on whichever platform you are listening to this. If this episode made you think of someone, go ahead, take a screenshot and share this exact episode with them. You can catch the show notes for this episode on drhaley.com. If you want to geek out with Dr. Michael Haley on other radical health topics. Be sure to check out his YouTube channel where he posts exclusive video content. All the details are at drhaley.com and we can’t wait to hang out with you on the next episode.