In this episode of The Dr. Haley Show, Dr. Michael Haley speaks with Michael Bovarnick, founder of The Prostate Education Project, about his personal journey through prostate cancer, recurrence, treatment decisions, and the emotional challenges that often come with diagnosis.
Michael shares what it was like to hear the words “you have prostate cancer,” why education became such an important part of his own healing journey, and how his experience led him to create a resource for men, spouses, caregivers, and families facing similar questions. The conversation covers PSA testing, Gleason scores, prostate cancer recurrence, androgen deprivation therapy (ADT), ADT side effects, intimacy and relationship challenges, and the importance of having a loved one present during medical appointments.
Dr. Haley and Michael also discuss Michael’s long history with Haley Nutrition’s Aloe Vera Gel Health Drink as part of his personal wellness routine, while making clear that aloe vera is not being presented as a cancer cure. Rather, the episode focuses on education, preparation, supportive wellness, and helping men ask better questions before and during treatment.
If you or someone you love is navigating prostate cancer, this episode offers a thoughtful, personal, and practical conversation about why knowledge reduces fear, understanding builds confidence, and education empowers patients.
Key Takeaways
- Prostate cancer diagnosis often brings fear, uncertainty, and unanswered questions.
- Michael Bovarnick created The Prostate Education Project to help patients, spouses, caregivers, and families better understand the journey.
- The episode discusses PSA testing, Gleason scores, recurrence, ADT therapy, ADT side effects, intimacy, and emotional resilience.
- Michael encourages men to take PSA testing seriously and to ask better questions before making treatment decisions.
- The central message: knowledge reduces fear, understanding builds confidence, and education empowers patients.
Timestamps:
00:00 PSA Testing and False Positives
00:11 Welcome to The Dr. Haley Show
00:39 Meet Michael Bovarnick of The Prostate Education Project
02:50 How Dr. Haley and Michael First Connected
03:14 Michael’s Prostate Cancer Diagnosis and Aloe Vera Story
05:37 Important Disclaimer About Aloe Vera and Cancer
06:51 Aloe Vera, ADT, and Supportive Wellness
08:05 Why Prostate Cancer Can Return After Prostate Removal
09:53 Haley Nutrition Aloe Vera Message
10:54 Life Today After Prostate Cancer Recurrence
12:18 Prostate Cancer Awareness and Rising Diagnosis Rates
13:36 PSA Testing, Screening, and Dr. Haley’s Personal Story
16:59 Hearing the Words “You Have Prostate Cancer”
18:46 Intimacy, Relationships, and Emotional Challenges
23:10 What Doctors Explain — and What Patients May Miss
26:22 Advice for Newly Diagnosed Men in the Panic Phase
28:33 PSA, Gleason Score, and Treatment Decisions
31:06 What Is ADT? Androgen Deprivation Therapy Explained
32:45 ADT Side Effects Doctors May Not Fully Prepare You For
34:01 “Cancer Changed My Diagnosis, Education Changed My Journey”
34:51 Why You Should Bring a Partner to Appointments
36:06 July 2026 Haley Nutrition Coupon Code
36:39 What Is an ADT Holiday?
39:27 PSA Testing Advice for Men Over 40
40:36 Urinary Symptoms, Enlarged Prostate, and Getting Checked
42:49 Prostate Cancer Symptoms Beyond Urinary Problems
43:52 Exercise, Diet, Bone Health, and Muscle Health During ADT
44:25 Genetics, Family History, and Prevention Questions
45:00 Exploring TheProstateEducationProject.org
45:41 The Newsletter and “Living Library” Vision
46:47 Spanish-Language Resources and Community Outreach
48:32 Final Thoughts: Knowledge Reduces Fear
49:46 Closing Remarks
RESOURCES
- Visit THE PROSTATE EDUCATION PROJECT website
- Visit Haley Nutrition
- Watch this episode on YouTube
- Listen on Apple Podcasts
- Listen on Spotify
Medical Disclaimer
This podcast episode and accompanying blog post are for educational and informational purposes only and are not intended as medical advice. The information shared should not be used to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, including prostate cancer.
The views and personal experiences shared by Michael Bovarnick reflect his own prostate cancer journey and should not be interpreted as a recommendation for any specific test, treatment, medication, supplement, or health protocol.
Always consult your physician or qualified healthcare provider before making decisions about PSA testing, prostate cancer screening, diagnosis, treatment options, androgen deprivation therapy (ADT), medications, supplements, diet, exercise, or any other health-related matter.
Aloe vera is discussed in this episode as part of Michael Bovarnick’s personal wellness routine and experience. Haley Nutrition Aloe Vera Gel Health Drink is not presented as a treatment or cure for prostate cancer.
If you are experiencing symptoms or have concerns about prostate health, speak with a licensed healthcare professional.
TRANSCRIPT
Michael Bovarnick: Fight with your doctor to get a PSA test because I would rather have a false positive and go through the testing than end up with prostate cancer.
Intro: You are listening to The Dr. Haley Show, the podcast dedicated to helping you optimize your health. Each episode will feature an interview or message to help you discover better health. We will be featuring health radicals on the show to bring new ideas to the table, as well as doubling down on key fundamentals to support you living your best life.
Intro: Your host is none other than the founder of Haley Nutrition, Dr. Michael Haley.
Dr. Michael Haley: Today I’m joined by Michael Bovarnick, founder of The Prostate Education Project. Michael is also a longtime customer of Haley Nutrition Aloe Vera Gel Health Drink, and over the years he has generously shared with others how aloe has supported him in his own life. We first got to know each other through phone conversations when he would call in his orders. Then, probably more than ten years ago, we met in person when he came to our location to pick up his aloe.
Dr. Michael Haley: Michael’s work with The Prostate Education Project grew out of his own experience with prostate cancer. Like many men, he entered that world with little preparation for just how medically, physically, and emotionally complex the journey would become. Along the way, he began building a structured collection of educational and wellness resources to help himself stay grounded and informed.
Dr. Michael Haley: That personal effort eventually developed into a larger mission: helping patients and caregivers better understand what to expect, what questions to ask, and what practical tools may help them navigate diagnosis, treatment decisions, side effects, recovery, and emotional well-being. Rather than overwhelming people with more medical jargon, Michael focuses on providing clear explanations, realistic guidance, and useful resources for men and families facing prostate cancer.
Dr. Michael Haley: Michael, welcome to the show. I want to start by saying, this episode is for people with prostates, people who used to have prostates, and people who know people who have prostates or used to have prostates. As I studied your website, I realized this just isn’t about someone who has a diagnosis with their prostate because so many other people are involved. It really is a journey.
Dr. Michael Haley: Let’s go back before we talk about The Prostate Education Project. How did we come to know each other? I think you were using the aloe before I had taken over that product line. Is that correct?
Michael Bovarnick: That is correct. It’s a long story, but if you want it, I can give it to you.
Dr. Michael Haley: Well, yeah. Why did you start drinking aloe vera to begin with?
Michael Bovarnick: The story began 23 years ago, Mike, when I was diagnosed with a pretty advanced case of prostate cancer. Going back a little bit beyond that, we had a friend whose sister had been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor. She was 36 years old at the time, and I’m going back 24 years now. She was basically told to go home and that she had six months to live.
Michael Bovarnick: A friend of hers told her about this crazy product called Stockton Aloe. She said, “Well, I have nothing to lose. Let me try it.” The protocol then was three 8-ounce glasses, three times a day, for four months.
Michael Bovarnick: She started drinking the aloe, and we talked to my friend. The cancer started to shrink. Anyway, long and short, when I was diagnosed, we said, “Hey, what the heck. Let’s give it a try.”
Michael Bovarnick: I had made a decision to have my prostate surgically removed, but I also told my surgeon that I wanted four months and that I would sign any agreement to hold him harmless if something happened to me. My choice, my problem.
Michael Bovarnick: At the time, my PSA was elevating and my free PSA protein levels were dropping dramatically. After drinking the aloe during the four months, it was like a religion. I never missed a day. My PSA dropped and my protein levels increased. Now, I can’t say one way or the other that it worked, but when the surgeon was ready to go in, he had booked me for four hours. He was in and out in an hour and a half and performed, at that time, a revolutionary procedure in the United States: a laparoscopic radical prostatectomy, which was unheard of back then.
Michael Bovarnick: Anyway, long story short, when the pathology came back, the cancer had one centimeter to go before it broke out of the prostate. So again, I always tell the story. I can’t tell you that the aloe helped because there’s no way of testing it, but I can also say I think the aloe certainly did help.
Michael Bovarnick: I’ve been drinking aloe ever since, every single day. Now, 20 years later, I have a recurrence, and I absolutely am a firm believer—not putting everything on the aloe—that the aloe has kept me healthy at 83 years old. That’s also having gone through major open heart surgery ten years ago.
Dr. Michael Haley: So here we go, and we’re going to do a little disclaimer because aloe vera is not a cancer cure. In fact, there’s really no cancer cure outside of what’s in you. You have the ability to cure cancer, and sometimes you can use things to help strengthen that process so that your body does it better. There are certain things that will get in the way of healing cancer, and there are certain things that will help you heal from cancer.
Michael Bovarnick: Well, I don’t disagree at all. Again, not to make it a commercial, but I’m absolutely a firm believer that for both my wife and myself—my wife also drinks this—it has helped us maintain a quality of life that probably wouldn’t exist.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah, I see it as one of those things that’s beneficial to me. It helps me. It helps my immune system work more like it’s supposed to, but it’s not a cure for cancer. That’s okay, because I have a cure for cancer, and that’s my own immune system working optimally.
Michael Bovarnick: I’m a firm believer, and again, I can’t prove it. Being on androgen deprivation therapy medications now, I absolutely believe that the aloe is helping enhance that drug. But again, I can’t prove it. It’s just my own feelings.
Dr. Michael Haley: Well, you know, it’s not so out of the ordinary to think that, considering there is science that would actually support that. There was a chemotherapy company, I believe, behind this particular project because 240 people with stage four cancer all got chemotherapy, and 119 of them were given one ounce of aloe a day. The 119 that got the one ounce of aloe had more than three times the number of people in what they considered the complete response group.
Dr. Michael Haley: So that is statistically significant, and they were only getting one ounce a day. Can you imagine if we said, “Drink three 8-ounce glasses a day” during that study? What would the results be? We don’t know. It should be done, but science certainly suggests there’s a benefit. Their conclusion was that their chemotherapy worked better with the aloe. They believed the aloe somehow starved the cancer cells, making them weaker and easier for the chemotherapy to kill. So we need to study this more.
Dr. Michael Haley: Mike, years later, why do you think the prostate cancer came back, especially if you did not have a prostate because it was removed?
Michael Bovarnick: In my research, the potential or probability, from a statistic quoted by Johns Hopkins, is that the potential for a long-term survivor is about 1 to 2% in that population, especially as we age, that the cancer will come back. There may have been dormant cells somewhere in the body and they just popped up.
Michael Bovarnick: Not to get political, there is some discussion today about the COVID vaccine also having lit up some cells that were lying in the body. For me, and again, not to make a political discussion out of it, my fourth COVID booster was very coincidental. March of 2022, I believe it was—sorry, March of 2023—was when my PSA started to elevate. I can’t prove it, but it was just a coincidence. But again, Johns Hopkins quotes statistically that there is a 1 to 2% chance that long-term prostate cancer survivors will have a recurrence. I’m one of them.
Dr. Michael Haley: No, I think that’s fair.
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Dr. Michael Haley: How is it affecting your life today? Are you still playing golf?
Michael Bovarnick: I still play golf. Honestly, Michael, I consider myself one of the very fortunate few because I do a lot of reading and studying, having developed The Prostate Education Project, about so many young men—and I mean much younger men in their late 40s and 50s—who are now being diagnosed with severe metastatic prostate cancer and some dying at a very young age.
Michael Bovarnick: For me personally, I keep asking why me? Maybe I have been so lucky from what I’m dealing with compared to what other men are dealing with. Mine, I consider a minor situation. So to answer your question directly, fortunately, I’m still able to maintain an active lifestyle.
Michael Bovarnick: Yes, the medication has some negative impacts, which we can talk about—the sleep deprivation and the sweats. I understand what a woman goes through with hormonal adjustments. But all things considered, at my age, I’m not doing too bad.
Dr. Michael Haley: Did you come across anything that gives you an idea how many men have either benign prostatic hypertrophy or prostate cancer at some point in their life? I’m guessing it’s a high number.
Michael Bovarnick: I can quote you from the American Cancer Society. Last year, 2025 estimated—and this is one of the reasons I really got involved with education—the American Cancer Society estimated in the United States that roughly 360,000 women would be diagnosed with breast cancer. They also estimated nationally that 350,000 men would be diagnosed with prostate cancer.
Michael Bovarnick: The numbers, again per ACS, of deaths annually specifically to breast and/or prostate are equal. That was the motivation because people just aren’t aware of it. Again, with all due respect to women and breast cancer, men are just lost in the clouds, so to say. They’re just not aware of it, and/or for whatever reason, doctors stopped doing PSA testing. But that’s another whole discussion.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah. It’s not like it’s easy to palpate and diagnose. I’ll be so transparent to say I haven’t had my prostate examined. Dare I say this, this is a bad story. I was in college, and someone put something in my drink, and I didn’t realize it. I didn’t know that whatever drug was put into my drink, what I experienced was like something I had never experienced before.
Dr. Michael Haley: So I went to the hospital. I took myself there because I just did not feel right. Unfortunately, it was a teaching hospital. I don’t know why they decided to check my prostate when I was drugged, but it was a perfect opportunity because I had no idea what was going on. There was just this line of doctors: “I don’t know. What do you think?” “I don’t know. Let me see.” “Well, why don’t you have a check too?”
Dr. Michael Haley: It was probably some kind of date rape drug I was given, and I was raped by a bunch of medical professionals instead. That was the last time I ever had my prostate checked. At this point, I’m almost 60 years old. I probably should have been examined again since then. Maybe I have a little.
Michael Bovarnick: Hopefully you’re getting your PSA testing. But again, the question has become, because of the “false positives,” PSA is not necessarily the benchmark.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah, and this is where we do the medical disclaimer. This is not medical advice. Don’t do what Dr. Haley does. We’re providing information here that could be of benefit, and if anything we say raises questions, discuss it with your doctor. This is just good information.
Dr. Michael Haley: But you had given a number like 300-and-some thousand, and that had to do with cancer. I would imagine prostatic hypertrophy or precancerous-type conditions are probably way higher. The reason I think that is because I remember years ago watching Robin Williams do a comedic bit where he was talking about difficulty urinating. That would be from an enlarged prostate, where you just don’t have the powerful stream anymore. The audience thought it was hysterical, and the only reason they could be laughing so much is because so many of them could relate to it.
Dr. Michael Haley: I would imagine that this is a much bigger problem in people over 40 years old than what anyone is really talking about. What do you think?
Michael Bovarnick: I don’t disagree with it. Again, not practicing medicine, but certainly an enlarged prostate may be an indicator. I just come back to the fact that either men aren’t going to the doctor and they’re not being checked for it, or whatever it is in their world today—the foods we eat—the numbers of cases are just growing rapidly, sadly. The numbers of younger men with severe cases are just incredible.
Dr. Michael Haley: A lot of people probably don’t want to know and don’t necessarily want to have this experience. What was it like? What did you feel? What did you experience when the doctor said, “Michael, you have prostate cancer”?
Michael Bovarnick: You hear those four words, and honestly, initially your mind goes blank. I write this on my website. You hear the words and you hear them talking, but you don’t really hear it anymore.
Michael Bovarnick: It creates so many questions. Again, going back to The Prostate Education Project, one of the reasons I did this is because people hear those words and it creates so many questions, either for the patient or the spouse or family, that they don’t know how to react in that moment.
Michael Bovarnick: I can talk about my own personal situation, but you change and you think your life is over because of the sexual aspect of it. The ego takes over. You’re not the man you think you are. That is totally unrealistic. There are ways to get around all of these things. The biggest thing, if I would put a number on it, is that the mind takes over. If you can get through the mind aspect of it and not let the mind control you, then you’re on your way back, if that helps.
Dr. Michael Haley: It does. When you mention intimacy and the effects it can have there, the emotional strain it can take on a relationship for those who are in a relationship, is there something they can do to help decrease those emotional challenges? If so, what?
Michael Bovarnick: The way I say it now—and you may have to edit this out—my comment today is, unfortunately, I consider men to have two brains: one in the head and one between their legs. I say that somewhat jokingly, but too often most men think with the one between their legs. If their manlyhood is gone, they can’t function. There are ways to get around that. The emotion is still there. The intimacy can still be there. The fact that you may not be able to function sexually is another whole discussion.
Michael Bovarnick: The sad part to that, quite honestly, Michael, is that in many cases it is the woman who becomes the problem because she feels left out. The intimacy is gone, and depending on how the man responds to that—because again, from what I’ve read, so many men become withdrawn because they think their sex life is gone, their intimacy is gone, they can’t function, and they’re not the man they thought they were.
Michael Bovarnick: That’s one side of it, and that relates to the woman and the relationship changing. That’s another problem with cancer, whether it be prostate cancer or other cancers, but specifically prostate cancer from the male side of it. From the posts I read from women talking about their own relationships and how it affects them, and how the man reacts to it, intimacy changes. There are still ways to get around that and make the partner feel comfortable, but it’s a major factor. There’s no question about it.
Dr. Michael Haley: Personally, I think one of the keys to intimacy is honesty and vulnerability. I think that’s what makes it so special. Opening up communication in that area makes yourself vulnerable to your partner. I don’t know if that’s helpful or not.
Michael Bovarnick: In talking with people, what I find is that women who have cancer seem to be, in my opinion, more open in talking about it. Men don’t want to talk about it. That does change the whole dynamic of how you have a conversation. Again, I’m not practicing psychiatry, but so many men, I feel, just feel that they now have a problem. They can’t relate anymore, and the spouse relationship becomes a problem. I don’t know if that answers the question.
Dr. Michael Haley: It does. There are people who specialize in this area, and it probably would be good to get some professional help. Don’t ignore it. That would make sense.
Michael Bovarnick: Yeah, but most men won’t admit it though. That’s my experience.
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Dr. Michael Haley: You mentioned that when you were given that diagnosis, you were present, but you weren’t hearing anything. You were overwhelmed, and you probably don’t know what the doctors explained well and what they left out, or what you had to learn on your own, because maybe they did explain things, but you weren’t able to receive it at the time.
Dr. Michael Haley: Do you remember what doctors presented to you or what was left out? With everything you’ve learned since then, what would you say was really left out?
Michael Bovarnick: I can go back, again remembering that I’m 23 years into dealing with this, and the protocols certainly have changed over the years. Initially, I’ll go back to the fact that my father died from prostate cancer, so I had some life history with this and the effects of it that he went through, which were horrible.
Michael Bovarnick: When I was first diagnosed, realizing the age that I was at the time, I had to make some choices. Knowing what my father went through, I immediately made the choice that I was going to have it out.
Michael Bovarnick: Again, I’m going to come back and say I did the protocol for four months. I was very fortunate that the surgery happened. No nerves were taken, so my nerves were spared. I was pretty lucky. During the 20 years, I always had the key. Being a paranoid hypochondriac, I maintained doing PSA testing throughout the entire time.
Michael Bovarnick: Too many doctors, unfortunately, and I’ve had this in my own experiences, have said to me, “Oh, a few of my patients at the 15-year mark, I would not have done any more PSAs.” Well, guess what? I probably would have been dead.
Michael Bovarnick: That all said, coming back now 20 years later, the protocols have changed. The cancer was different, meaning that my PSA started to elevate, and I knew what needed to be done. I immediately went to my primary and said, “You’ve got to get me into a PET scan.” The PET scan came back with two nodes on my left pelvic wall. I immediately knew I needed radiation or some form of treatment.
Michael Bovarnick: Fortunately, I have a son-in-law, so to say, in the medical business, and he got me in to see the right people immediately. Five days of pinpoint radiation. Three months later, the cancer elevated again, which necessitated going back for ADT treatment, androgen deprivation therapy, which is another whole discussion.
Michael Bovarnick: Again, as I said earlier, the effects of ADT can be worse than some of the actual problems. That also necessitated another round of radiation. So I was aware of this. It affects you, and how do you deal with this, especially now going on medications that definitely are going to change your life? I don’t know if that answers the question.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah. So for someone who is newly diagnosed and needs to make good decisions, but they’re in that panic phase, what would your recommendation be for them?
Michael Bovarnick: Just try to read as much as you can. Hopefully what I’m trying to do with my own project is an asset to somebody, because yes, it raises so many questions. Unfortunately today, and I don’t know if there’s any straight answer to that, Michael, because as you know and I know, and most people know, doctors or clinicians just don’t have the time to sit and talk and explain things as they used to.
Michael Bovarnick: That opens up the question, “What do I do?” I don’t know if there’s any straight answer to that except people now go on Facebook and social media sites and try to find some information—not necessarily the best. I would say try to do your own research. Make up your list of questions.
Michael Bovarnick: Again, that’s exactly one of the reasons why I had this higher calling, so to say, to develop The Prostate Education Project. I hope that through that project, I’m answering a lot of those questions from a lived experience.
Dr. Michael Haley: One of my favorite questions to ask the doctor is, “If this was you or someone you love, if this was your child, what would you recommend for them? What treatment would you recommend for them? Would you do this to yourself?” Also, “What are the outcomes? People who get this procedure, how many does it work for? Are we just buying time, or is this working toward a real cure?” These are some of the things I want to know before jumping into a treatment.
Michael Bovarnick: Again, I can only speak to protocol. The choices when you’re first diagnosed are: what is your PSA level? What’s your Gleason score? Do we watch and wait? Do you do immediate treatment? Whether that be surgical removal, does it mean radiation? What are the numbers? The numbers will dictate the treatment.
Michael Bovarnick: I’ll go back 23 years ago when I was diagnosed. My primary care was very aggressive in making sure I had care. Our local pharmacist in the town where we were living—he and I were diagnosed at the same time. His doctor told him, “Let’s watch and wait.” He was dead in two years.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah. What can you tell us about the Gleason score?
Michael Bovarnick: It’s a biopsy pathology. How do they determine the aggressiveness? It’s a test, unfortunately, going through the rectum, where they insert what are referred to as plugs or cores into the prostate at different locations within the prostate. Then, based on the results of where the cancer is within the prostate, it’s a two-tier number. That two-tier number will dictate. Generally, the highest score is nine. It could be 3+6, 5+4, or various options. Those numbers will generally dictate, from a clinician standpoint, the course of action.
Michael Bovarnick: Along with that, depending on having a PET scan today, that’s the PSMA prostate-specific PET scan, which will show up any—not microscopic cells—but it will show up any larger cells. That’s how we found mine.
Dr. Michael Haley: I got you. Do you wish you had done anything different?
Michael Bovarnick: No. It is what it is. I tried to maintain, during the 20 years, a quality of life. We watched our diet. Fate being what it is, it is what it is. I can’t say, for me personally, that I would have changed anything.
Dr. Michael Haley: Okay, well, that’s nice to hear. You mentioned the ADT therapy. I don’t know what that is.
Michael Bovarnick: Androgen deprivation therapy. Prostate cancer loves testosterone. Prostate cancer feeds off of testosterone. The goal of androgen deprivation therapy is to reduce the amount of testosterone in the body.
Dr. Michael Haley: How is it administered?
Michael Bovarnick: In the past, the only options were injections. One of the common ones was Lupron that is being used. That’s, I believe, a three-month injection, with varying side effects that go along with it.
Michael Bovarnick: Six years ago, Pfizer came out with an oral medication called Orgovyx, and that changes the approach. Bottom line, ADT will reduce the testosterone in the body from wherever it is to almost nothing. That creates hormonal changes.
Michael Bovarnick: You end up with hot flashes. Sleep deprivation becomes a problem. It is not atypical to have weight gain because your metabolism changes and the processing of insulin changes.
Michael Bovarnick: In my own situation, I will drink fluids, and the fluid goes to the bottom of my legs, which can cause swelling. But that fluid, when I go to sleep at night, comes back up. So it’s not uncommon to be up three or four times a night to urinate, all part of androgen deprivation.
Michael Bovarnick: Everybody is different. I consider myself very fortunate with the side effects that I’ve had compared to others. I deal with it. It’s not fun.
Dr. Michael Haley: Were you prepared for that? Did they tell you those changes would happen?
Michael Bovarnick: No. Again, the clinicians don’t have the time to really go in-depth. They can gloss over it, but unless you’ve done it, you don’t know it. So they can talk about it, but my personal feeling is that unless you’ve dealt with it and know what it’s like to go through it, it’s a totally different discussion.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah. So it’s making your sleep difficult, and if it’s making your sleep difficult, it’s probably crossing over into other areas of your life.
Michael Bovarnick: Well, you need that afternoon nap.
Dr. Michael Haley: I kind of like that anyway already. Is that bad? I think there are some cultures where that’s just something you do. You have lunch, and then a little while later you take a power nap. I think that’s a good practice in life. I’m not going to give up my naps.
Michael Bovarnick: I’m just reading some of my notes here. You asked a question before, and maybe this will answer it. I was quoting, “Cancer changed my diagnosis. Education changed my journey.” My hope is that The Prostate Education Project can help change theirs—or yours.
Dr. Michael Haley: That’s a good word because I do understand that the doctors don’t have the time. As you had already mentioned, when you are there and you’re hearing some shocking news, you’re not necessarily going to hear it anyway. So it is good to have another source.
Dr. Michael Haley: One of your recommendations was to have a loved one with you at your visits. Tell us a little bit about that and the why.
Michael Bovarnick: Absolutely. In my own case, my lovely wife has been my partner for years, and she hears things that I may not hear. It’s a partnership. Having a spouse or partner with you in dealing with any cancer, not just prostate cancer, I think is critical. If you have any kind of relationship, it’s an understanding that both of you are going to go through this. It’s not just an individual.
Michael Bovarnick: One of my other notes says patients don’t just need treatment. They also need understanding. Having a partner with you who also understands what you’re going through and dealing with—you can’t put a price on that.
Dr. Michael Haley: I agree. Absolutely. Not that you want to burden anyone, and that’s not what it’s about. It’s about just being honest. Here are the facts of life: I’m not who I used to be. I can’t pick up that automobile anymore. We want to be, you know, we love competition. We want to win everything and be the greatest. That doesn’t last.
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Dr. Michael Haley: I want to go back to the ADT because I saw something about an ADT holiday. What is that? What does that mean?
Michael Bovarnick: The ADT holiday, again, I’m now speaking of my own situation. I was on Orgovyx, the oral medication, and I chose that primarily because the injectables are typically either one month or three months. If you have any kind of side effect, you’re stuck. Whereas with the oral medication, the life within the body is 25 hours. So if you have a bad reaction, that’s it.
Michael Bovarnick: Anyway, I was on the oral medication for seven and a half months. During that time, I had repeated PSA and testosterone tests, and each one of those—four of them—the numbers were all the same. My PSA went to undetectable, and my testosterone essentially was less than three.
Michael Bovarnick: The decision was made, because I tolerated the medication well and appeared to be doing well, having gone through the second round of radiation, that we would take a break off of the medication. This would be the ADT holiday. It’s initially a 90-day trial, if you will.
Michael Bovarnick: My first PSA, six weeks into that, my numbers remained where they were originally. My medical oncologist was pleased with that, and also said it could take up to three months for the testosterone to start to regenerate, especially at my age. Hopefully the PSA remains where it is, undetectable.
Michael Bovarnick: I started May 1st, and I’ll do another PSA test at the end of July, and we’ll see where we are. Hopefully, if the numbers maintain where they have been, we will continue the holiday and just continue with the PSA testing. That’s the benchmark.
Michael Bovarnick: If the PSA starts to elevate, if the PSA doubles within a three-month period of time, we know the cancer is back. Then you’re starting all over again: PET scan, where is it, going back on the medication, and hopefully it hasn’t hit any of the organs or lymph nodes or any of that kind of stuff.
Dr. Michael Haley: All right. Give advice to men who are 40 and don’t have any symptoms. What should they do?
Michael Bovarnick: Fight with your doctor to get a PSA test because so many don’t want to do it. Again, part of it is that it has come down from the almighty government above saying you don’t need it because you get false positives. But my argument is I would rather have a false positive and go through the testing than end up with prostate cancer.
Michael Bovarnick: It may be uncomfortable doing tests or whatever. If you have to go in for a Gleason test, there are so many other options today. I ask that same question, Michael: why are so many young men being diagnosed? Part of it is they’re not getting tested. Again, not practicing medicine, it just appears that the cancer is hitting younger men, for whatever reason. So I can’t emphasize enough: PSA, PSA, PSA.
Michael Bovarnick: When the doctor says every year, my argument is, no, every six months. It’s a cheap test, even if you have to pay for it on your own.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah, and I know your answer is going to sound very similar to that first question, but for the man who is over 40 and is having symptoms—difficulty peeing, getting up frequently in the nighttime, not emptying completely—they are having symptoms of prostatic hypertrophy and they haven’t been to a doctor in years. I’m asking you for me because I haven’t been to a doctor forever. What do you say to someone like myself who just doesn’t go to the doctor?
Michael Bovarnick: If you want a PSA test, go to a lab and get a PSA test. I think anywhere you are, it’s a hundred bucks. If you can afford it, get a PSA test. It’s critical.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah. Go to the doctor. Get it done if you can. Go to a lab. Not everyone can go to the lab because they probably require a prescription. I might be able to write my own prescription, but I don’t think anything.
Michael Bovarnick: I’m not sure. That’s a good question. I’ve talked to guys who said they’ve just gone to the lab and said, “I want a PSA.” But the key is, yeah, get it. Get a test.
Dr. Michael Haley: You can probably get a prescription from Amazon. I think they have doctor visits.
Michael Bovarnick: Well, it’s a doctor. Your doc-in-the-box. Nothing wrong with that. Dr. McCullough was on TV, and you can call up his 800 number and get his all-inclusive medical care kit with all the prescriptions and so forth.
Dr. Michael Haley: That’s right. I did see that on the news channel.
Dr. Michael Haley: It is true, too, that you can schedule a doctor’s visit. This is probably the one good thing that came out of the whole COVID shutdown: doctor availability online became a lot more popular. You don’t even have to take time out of your day to schedule an appointment. I could do it from sitting in the same chair I’m in right now. As soon as we’re done with this call, I could be on a Zoom meeting with a physician who is asking the right questions and writing the right scripts, and I go to the lab and get my blood test.
Michael Bovarnick: Let me go back to something you said because you’re talking about somebody with an enlarged prostate or having difficulty urinating and so forth. Yes, that is a common sign. But again, not practicing medicine here, one of the common problems that men will all of a sudden discover is they have pain in their shoulders or they have pains elsewhere in the body that have shown to be a sign of prostate cancer.
Dr. Michael Haley: Oh, interesting. So it’s not just urine or urinary problems.
Michael Bovarnick: Especially if it’s metastasized. Again, this is from what I’ve read, not speaking from experience, but there is so much out there that there are signs of prostate cancer that has metastasized because it will affect, obviously, organs and the bones. It will attack the bone and muscle.
Michael Bovarnick: By the way, that’s one of the side effects of ADT also. It will affect, and does affect, bone and muscle. So staying active, having a proper diet, and exercise are critical when you’re on these medications. Absolutely critical.
Dr. Michael Haley: Yeah, and I’ll say critical for maximizing general health anyway, so why not all the more so when you really need it?
Dr. Michael Haley: Do you think you could have prevented prostate cancer to begin with, or do you think it was kind of programmed in you because your father had it and it was in your genes? Could you have turned that gene off?
Michael Bovarnick: I have an older brother. He doesn’t have it. He’s had other cancers, but prostate-specific, again, from my own reading, yes, genetically it’s a high probability. So whatever it was, could I have started something to prevent it? It is what it is.
Michael Bovarnick: Doctors will tell you the chances of most men having some prostate issue and ending up with prostate cancer sometime in their life is not too unlikely, unfortunately.
Dr. Michael Haley: I visited your website, TheProstateEducationProject.org, and for anyone still listening, if you’re listening this far, then there’s definitely an interest. I would encourage you to go check out that website. The resources on it are extensive. My goodness, what a complete resource there.
Dr. Michael Haley: Well, it’s never complete, right? Because if it was, you wouldn’t be adding to it. It’s going to be a growing database of content. But it is rich, and there’s a place to subscribe. If I subscribe to the newsletters or to the website, what am I getting?
Michael Bovarnick: That’s coming down the road. We’re working with some doctors now. One particular urology group here where I live gave me a tremendous validation.
Michael Bovarnick: The newsletter ultimately will be from doctors and clinicians talking about it in more general terms. We want to talk about more patient, lived experiences, and any trends. We want to do things from a lived experience. As you mentioned earlier, we want to hear from the spouse or partner and talk about their experiences and how they’re dealing with it.
Michael Bovarnick: So keeping current, trying to get more clinicians involved, can get us all down the road. For us right now, we’ve kind of changed the whole model of this thing, and we’re no longer really considering this a website. The goal is to make this a living library that will go beyond when I’m not here.
Dr. Michael Haley: That’s great. I noticed that you’re also already getting recognition. There was a post shared by Urology Nevada, which is a large organization of physicians and people you can get appointments with to get your urology issues evaluated and treated.
Michael Bovarnick: One of the key things that we haven’t talked about, and what I’ve done with this project, is that we have converted this project to 100% Spanish, and it’s universal Spanish.
Michael Bovarnick: In our work, the people I work with doing this in the Hispanic community have found that, statistically, the Hispanic community has more problems with prostate cancer than the Caucasian community, interestingly enough. They’re not getting the proper treatment.
Dr. Michael Haley: Interesting. I’m verifying that. I went to the website as you said that, and there is a dropdown box in the top right.
Michael Bovarnick: That’s correct. It instantly converts the website from English to Spanish. The whole website is in Spanish. It’s a universally medically accepted Spanish.
Dr. Michael Haley: Awesome. I know that would be important here where I am in South Florida.
Michael Bovarnick: Absolutely. Spanish here where I am in northern Nevada, 37% of the population of this county is Hispanic. Going back to Urology Nevada, 30% of their patients are Hispanic.
Dr. Michael Haley: Great. One of these days I’m going to learn Spanish, at least well enough to order food. I know what I like. I can get a hamburger. I know how to do that one.
Dr. Michael Haley: Mike, I want to thank you for taking time to educate people. There were so many things we could have covered. For anyone listening in, check out the website, TheProstateEducationProject.org, and subscribe to the newsletters. Eventually you’ll be getting great content.
Dr. Michael Haley: More importantly, if you look at the big menus on the top—I’m doing that right now—there’s a section for patients and families, and then the educational library is just jam-packed, well-organized, with all kinds of great content. If you need to learn more about this, check out the website.
Dr. Michael Haley: Mike, thank you for all you’re doing. Any final parting words?
Michael Bovarnick: Yeah. Again, just looking at my notes, we’ve come up with some taglines. We’re talking about all of this stuff of education: knowledge reduces fear, understanding builds confidence, and lastly, education empowers patients.
Dr. Michael Haley: Beautiful. Thank you.
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